Brexit

[I3R0K3N7FEET]

Idk if there is already a thread about this subject elsewhere, but rather than posting in other related threads I think it is best to have a single go to thread about this subject here.

Right.

The facts...

52% voted leave. This is largely due to the fact that England has a Tory problem. The leave vote was almost inevitable as many used it as a rebel vote, some on the (absolutely, blindingly obvious) false promises being made about the redistribution of funds. The Tories right now have no plan, the leave camp had no plan, there was no contingent.

The predicted 'leave' demographic was pretty much spot on with the 'low educated, English', which is a much larger problem that we ever cared to admit. The Tory policies (partly aided by New-Labour) caused and expanded a huge social underclass of low skill, poorly educated English people that have been rounded up and left behind without opportunity, and low chance of social mobility or navigation. This creates crime, addiction, health (mental and physical) issues, poverty, desperation, and many without a true understanding. The education system is a minefield to navigate through for an application, let alone sourcing funding and the deterrent costs. So instead of funding our own education, we play on prestige and import intelligence from European countries where they have high quality, state funded degrees while Britain largely a low-skill labour economy. This is why immigration has been perceived as a huge problem by much of the underclass-working class in the UK. Why has the government nurtured a low-skill economy? Because they are the highest spenders and consumers. They spend every last valuable penny they got, they borrow more, and hurray for capitalism. The Pound Sterling has so much value yet the true value is not seen in the UK at all. So to summarise, money mill Britain is not a good thing for the British, nor for the economy, nor for any fair standard of living. Most of the Tories power comes from media control and the predictable nature of the poorly educated.

The Tories often repeat phrases that are proven untrue time and time again, yet people believe it, such as 'strong economy', 'strong leadership' and repeatedly use terminology that will pretty much brainwash those none the wiser as to the actual facts and statistics behind the results of their actions. Theresa May has even started to steal 'Labour' terminology including the use of the words 'fair' 'inclusive' and 'good for everyone', as well as good old Tory spin such as 'living within our means'. Which shows that they are intentionally lying about the truth behind their economic policy, but people are placated by the words ringing about their heads that pretty much sound reasonable, relatable and understandable.


Use of such words is pretty much manipulating people's ideas and thoughts pretty much in the same way subliminal advertising does, something that was banned in the UK in 1957.
The truth is, right now the UK is facing the most crucial and important political challenges since WWII and you vote Conservative over supporting Labour and the genuine opportunity presented by Jeremy Corbyn, you are directly responsible for the causing the stagnation of the UK economy, the plundering the the UK Public funds, the increase in poverty, mental illness, declination of professional jobs, the increase in personal debt, the decrease in social mobility, increase in social divide, the increase in persecution, discrimination and segregation of ethnic/religious groups.

To highlight this, I once questioned a friend on their vote in the general election, and the answer I received was 'Labour is for poor people, I work hard and I ain't no scrounger.'. This coming from someone who earns £18K pa, used public schooling, uses the NHS regularly, and receives working tax credits. This is clearly someone brainwashed by the media and social stigma.

While the Labour leadership draws to an end (let's face it, Owen Smith will only win by a direct fix despite the amount of questionable actions taken by the Labour party and the NEC to swing it away from Corbyn's favour) the result is pretty much inevitable. I question anyone that is genuinely supporting that Misogynistic, racist, plastic corporate boy. We can only hope that the Labour PLP fall in behind Corbyn as a more effective opposition.

Despite Jeremy Corbyn's strong fight against Theresa May recently and the plan to reintroduce more social divide (let's face it, no matter the implementation, grammar schools will only choose those well behaved, well mannered, easy to deal with kids, which means stable, disciplined parenting, which means 'mostly' educated, middle classed kids, which means it will instantly fail). They have not raised any real offensive against the Tories in regards to Europe, and it is clear that the Tories are still weak in this area (let's face it, Theresa May is actually incredibly evil, and incompetent to the extent that she makes me wish DC didn't resign, though election fraud etc...) People need to wake up that 'witty stabs' and perceived 'charisma' is meaningless when it comes to running the country.

The truth is Article 50 is a ticking time bomb. People of this country are stupid if they believe that 'things aren't so bad', but they need to seriously realise that we are not out of the EU yet. Nothing has changed, except for a slight drop in strength of the pound sterling. The plan is, to come up with trade agreements globally and with the EU that is beneficial to the UK before activating article 50.

The main problem is. The UK has 2 ultimate choices.

1. To trade with the EU, the UK must accept free movement. Which will mean, nothing really changes in regards to the UK's situation of immigration and Sovereignty and the EU can impose legislation and overrule matters of concern to the UK without any discussion, or representation from the UK. Basically we will have lost our voice in Europe. This result will keep the UK economy stable, but overtime the EU will be the overlords, and it will become apparent.
2. The UK triggers article 50 with no plans, trade agreements and literally will be like '**** it'. This will completely crash the UK economy. We will not be able to trade with the EU, and the UK will have to sell things cheaply to developing countries (that aren't stable) to keep things afloat.

The Former is good for the short term, the latter is good for the long term. The reason being why option 2 is better, is because the UK has some of the highest quality mechanical engineering that is desired the world over, and due to having an efficient and modern infrastructure, handled well, the UK's economy could bounce back harder and faster than some DOOM scenarios would care to admit, many business and economic analysts would agree that the EU has been stifling the UK economy. Also, we may as well take advantage of this situation as best we can. The EU has run its course, it is not suit for purpose, the EU fat cats need to step down, and something new needs to take over. It is no secret that the United States of Europe has been the vision for some time now, and while I don't think the EU is essentially 'bad', the model is inflated, inefficient, and stubborn, and a hard exit will almost completely destroy the EU, while a soft exit will maintain the EU.

So what would you guys like from an exit deal?

[theste]

No. leave means leave

[RandomPC]

Here we are at last, the 29th of March 2019. So tell me, is Brexit everything that you dreamed it would be?

[FunkY]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47400679

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/b...cision-2594727

[Aaron]

[FunkY]

Talk about a slow motion

[omega]

I am openly against Uranium/plutonium for use as fuel. I believe that we should be investing in Thorium based fuel as it is 1. relatively abundant. 2. significantly safer. 3. we now have the technology to utilise it.

Oh me too, I'm totally against calling nuclear "Green" when it needs 10,000 years after decommissioning to be deemed "safe".

But it's not fossil, and we need power right now, so we're stuck with it, for the time being at least.

[I3R0K3N7FEET]

I am openly against Uranium/plutonium for use as fuel. I believe that we should be investing in Thorium based fuel as it is 1. relatively abundant. 2. significantly safer. 3. we now have the technology to utilise it.

[omega]

There are many 'better' systems than neoliberalism, but there are systems in place trying to hold it together, including people like you making half minded comments such as

'Capitalism and Democracy might not be perfect but show us something better and ill eat my hat.'

Half brained because you linked 'capitalism and democracy' assuming the two are mutually exclusive?? Also, democracy is pure chaos, there have been many great minds on it, and while 'pure democracy', something which people seem to believe we have, is NEVER going to happen simply because voters are too ignorant. In theory, the parliamentary system would actually be 'the best' system, were it not already filled with non-elected peers in the house of lords, and the established control the political elite has ascertained through history. A representative democracy works as a filter by people that know or should know the details of such things we vote on. The biggest issue currently with MPs is the vetting process. Labour's system for example is completely democratic, while the Conservatives are picked behind curtains. In both cases, the vetting process is very limited (as revealed recently) it might only be later on when we find out that the Labour MP is actually an illiterate numpty, or the conservative MP is actually some earl of Fensington who is really a non-dom landlord with conflicts on interests left right and centre, with fingers in all sorts of businesses (and children) after graduating from Eton.

neoliberalism and sustainable living for humans and animals, the environment, and global-warming, is simply IMPOSSIBLE. The world is carbon hungry and we can not sustain the use of carbon based fuels anymore and the richest economies will be the hardest hit when they no-longer can get the resources they need.

In regards to alternative economic models, there are many around, and just because your life is relatively comfortable now, doesnt mean that maintaining the status quo is better than any alternative, when current predictions have recently been revised to suggest that the world could in fact be inhospitable within the next century. Do you plan to have children? Because your grandchildren may not have a world to live in unless something changes.

This is a fantastic piece by the well respected George Monbiot
https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...george-monbiot

We don't need carbon / fossil fuels. We have nuclear and green energy sources. Wind, solar & tidal will all take off massively soon (TM), and it's already begun.
This year the combined total of nuclear and green production outweighed gas / oil / coal for the first time.

Water will be the real issue of the next century. Clean de-salinated un-polluted water.

[I3R0K3N7FEET]

There are many 'better' systems than neoliberalism, but there are systems in place trying to hold it together, including people like you making half minded comments such as

'Capitalism and Democracy might not be perfect but show us something better and ill eat my hat.'

Half brained because you linked 'capitalism and democracy' assuming the two are mutually exclusive?? Also, democracy is pure chaos, there have been many great minds on it, and while 'pure democracy', something which people seem to believe we have, is NEVER going to happen simply because voters are too ignorant. In theory, the parliamentary system would actually be 'the best' system, were it not already filled with non-elected peers in the house of lords, and the established control the political elite has ascertained through history. A representative democracy works as a filter by people that know or should know the details of such things we vote on. The biggest issue currently with MPs is the vetting process. Labour's system for example is completely democratic, while the Conservatives are picked behind curtains. In both cases, the vetting process is very limited (as revealed recently) it might only be later on when we find out that the Labour MP is actually an illiterate numpty, or the conservative MP is actually some earl of Fensington who is really a non-dom landlord with conflicts on interests left right and centre, with fingers in all sorts of businesses (and children) after graduating from Eton.

neoliberalism and sustainable living for humans and animals, the environment, and global-warming, is simply IMPOSSIBLE. The world is carbon hungry and we can not sustain the use of carbon based fuels anymore and the richest economies will be the hardest hit when they no-longer can get the resources they need.

In regards to alternative economic models, there are many around, and just because your life is relatively comfortable now, doesnt mean that maintaining the status quo is better than any alternative, when current predictions have recently been revised to suggest that the world could in fact be inhospitable within the next century. Do you plan to have children? Because your grandchildren may not have a world to live in unless something changes.

This is a fantastic piece by the well respected George Monbiot
https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...george-monbiot

[Jackster]

Capitalism and Democracy might not be perfect but show us something better and ill eat my hat.

[omega]

Brexit. 52% voted to leave the EU, so in a socialist society you'd have to deal with those 52% of people contributing little but hot air it was more of a tongue in cheek comment.

[I3R0K3N7FEET]

I think we need to be very careful not to hop between Capitalism and Socialism. For the most part, capitalism works. It's not a great system, but it works.
You do need to remember that 52% of voters said "Leave". Is that really the kind of Socialist society you want to be a part of? I really don't.

(don't mistake my chopping down your quote for me dismissing the rest of your post, because I do agree with most of it )

I agree. I wasn't intending to hop between them, but I do believe that considering the situation of the world, we need to start taking steps towards sustainable living in regards to economy and population, and that capitalism at its very core, is not sustainable. Socialism, too, is flawed, and there is much in socialism that is completely missing from capitalism which needs to be ensured and protected. also, not sure what your 52% vote really refers to however, you didnt mention my comments on democracy, so I dont really understand the context. Personally, I think that the parlimentary process is actually very good, despite the institutionalised corruption, which, with a clean slate, could be ironed out.

[omega]

Capitalism is dying, and what that looks like is financial desperation and war. Socialism it not the answer directly, but it is certainly a start. Brexit in its current form will be a huge step backwards into the stone age.

I think we need to be very careful not to hop between Capitalism and Socialism. For the most part, capitalism works. It's not a great system, but it works.
You do need to remember that 52% of voters said "Leave". Is that really the kind of Socialist society you want to be a part of? I really don't.

(don't mistake my chopping down your quote for me dismissing the rest of your post, because I do agree with most of it )

[I3R0K3N7FEET]

We voted to leave, we should leave, we will leave.

Rant all you like, that doesn't change the fact that the government lied, and are deceiving the public and are not following the correct, lawful processes. Referenda in the UK are NOT, and are NEVER LEGALLY BINDING. The UK is not a DEMOCRACY, we have a REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY.

The Brexit referendum was not legally binding. The correct course of action should have been, on a leave vote, the government should have commissioned an independent feasibility study into the implications of leaving the EU. That study should have then been presented to parliament to which they would have then had a vote based on the results of that study. If they voted to leave, they should have then triggered Article 50, and began negotiations. The results of which should then be presented to the UK public for a 2nd (leave/remain) vote. Finally, Parliament then would have a final vote based on the deal/2nd ref, and would retain full power to overturn public consensus if they, (MPs, and those in a position that should know better) felt it was necessary. That is their job.

Regardless of whether you understand or not, that is the truth.

The UK vote was under heavy propaganda, lies, and misguidance, and if we were leaving under the proper procedure, I would not be complaining at all. I personally am not even against brexit 'done properly'. But lets face it, as the majority of people expected, the Tories are not capable of negotiating a deal for Britain as they are too concerned about protecting their own personal interests and the interests of big business. The 'deal' David Cameron negotiated before the referendum was based on retaining special privileges for 'the city of London', a misleading title in itself which not many people understand. Because now the EU are committed to clamping down on tax evasion, look at the Tories run scared, and trying harder to undermine that. The UK can not remain ignorant to what our government does, and while I am definitely not 'hard left', politically, the hard left certainly is needed right now to balance out the rubbish going on in this country. Capitalism is dying, and what that looks like is financial desperation and war. Socialism it not the answer directly, but it is certainly a start. Brexit in its current form will be a huge step backwards into the stone age.