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  • Brexit

    Idk if there is already a thread about this subject elsewhere, but rather than posting in other related threads I think it is best to have a single go to thread about this subject here.

    Right.

    The facts...

    52% voted leave. This is largely due to the fact that England has a Tory problem. The leave vote was almost inevitable as many used it as a rebel vote, some on the (absolutely, blindingly obvious) false promises being made about the redistribution of funds. The Tories right now have no plan, the leave camp had no plan, there was no contingent.

    The predicted 'leave' demographic was pretty much spot on with the 'low educated, English', which is a much larger problem that we ever cared to admit. The Tory policies (partly aided by New-Labour) caused and expanded a huge social underclass of low skill, poorly educated English people that have been rounded up and left behind without opportunity, and low chance of social mobility or navigation. This creates crime, addiction, health (mental and physical) issues, poverty, desperation, and many without a true understanding. The education system is a minefield to navigate through for an application, let alone sourcing funding and the deterrent costs. So instead of funding our own education, we play on prestige and import intelligence from European countries where they have high quality, state funded degrees while Britain largely a low-skill labour economy. This is why immigration has been perceived as a huge problem by much of the underclass-working class in the UK. Why has the government nurtured a low-skill economy? Because they are the highest spenders and consumers. They spend every last valuable penny they got, they borrow more, and hurray for capitalism. The Pound Sterling has so much value yet the true value is not seen in the UK at all. So to summarise, money mill Britain is not a good thing for the British, nor for the economy, nor for any fair standard of living. Most of the Tories power comes from media control and the predictable nature of the poorly educated.

    The Tories often repeat phrases that are proven untrue time and time again, yet people believe it, such as 'strong economy', 'strong leadership' and repeatedly use terminology that will pretty much brainwash those none the wiser as to the actual facts and statistics behind the results of their actions. Theresa May has even started to steal 'Labour' terminology including the use of the words 'fair' 'inclusive' and 'good for everyone', as well as good old Tory spin such as 'living within our means'. Which shows that they are intentionally lying about the truth behind their economic policy, but people are placated by the words ringing about their heads that pretty much sound reasonable, relatable and understandable.


    Use of such words is pretty much manipulating people's ideas and thoughts pretty much in the same way subliminal advertising does, something that was banned in the UK in 1957.
    The truth is, right now the UK is facing the most crucial and important political challenges since WWII and you vote Conservative over supporting Labour and the genuine opportunity presented by Jeremy Corbyn, you are directly responsible for the causing the stagnation of the UK economy, the plundering the the UK Public funds, the increase in poverty, mental illness, declination of professional jobs, the increase in personal debt, the decrease in social mobility, increase in social divide, the increase in persecution, discrimination and segregation of ethnic/religious groups.

    To highlight this, I once questioned a friend on their vote in the general election, and the answer I received was 'Labour is for poor people, I work hard and I ain't no scrounger.'. This coming from someone who earns 18K pa, used public schooling, uses the NHS regularly, and receives working tax credits. This is clearly someone brainwashed by the media and social stigma.

    While the Labour leadership draws to an end (let's face it, Owen Smith will only win by a direct fix despite the amount of questionable actions taken by the Labour party and the NEC to swing it away from Corbyn's favour) the result is pretty much inevitable. I question anyone that is genuinely supporting that Misogynistic, racist, plastic corporate boy. We can only hope that the Labour PLP fall in behind Corbyn as a more effective opposition.

    Despite Jeremy Corbyn's strong fight against Theresa May recently and the plan to reintroduce more social divide (let's face it, no matter the implementation, grammar schools will only choose those well behaved, well mannered, easy to deal with kids, which means stable, disciplined parenting, which means 'mostly' educated, middle classed kids, which means it will instantly fail). They have not raised any real offensive against the Tories in regards to Europe, and it is clear that the Tories are still weak in this area (let's face it, Theresa May is actually incredibly evil, and incompetent to the extent that she makes me wish DC didn't resign, though election fraud etc...) People need to wake up that 'witty stabs' and perceived 'charisma' is meaningless when it comes to running the country.

    The truth is Article 50 is a ticking time bomb. People of this country are stupid if they believe that 'things aren't so bad', but they need to seriously realise that we are not out of the EU yet. Nothing has changed, except for a slight drop in strength of the pound sterling. The plan is, to come up with trade agreements globally and with the EU that is beneficial to the UK before activating article 50.

    The main problem is. The UK has 2 ultimate choices.

    1. To trade with the EU, the UK must accept free movement. Which will mean, nothing really changes in regards to the UK's situation of immigration and Sovereignty and the EU can impose legislation and overrule matters of concern to the UK without any discussion, or representation from the UK. Basically we will have lost our voice in Europe. This result will keep the UK economy stable, but overtime the EU will be the overlords, and it will become apparent.
    2. The UK triggers article 50 with no plans, trade agreements and literally will be like '**** it'. This will completely crash the UK economy. We will not be able to trade with the EU, and the UK will have to sell things cheaply to developing countries (that aren't stable) to keep things afloat.

    The Former is good for the short term, the latter is good for the long term. The reason being why option 2 is better, is because the UK has some of the highest quality mechanical engineering that is desired the world over, and due to having an efficient and modern infrastructure, handled well, the UK's economy could bounce back harder and faster than some DOOM scenarios would care to admit, many business and economic analysts would agree that the EU has been stifling the UK economy. Also, we may as well take advantage of this situation as best we can. The EU has run its course, it is not suit for purpose, the EU fat cats need to step down, and something new needs to take over. It is no secret that the United States of Europe has been the vision for some time now, and while I don't think the EU is essentially 'bad', the model is inflated, inefficient, and stubborn, and a hard exit will almost completely destroy the EU, while a soft exit will maintain the EU.

    So what would you guys like from an exit deal?

  • #2
    Originally posted by I3R0K3N7FEET View Post
    To highlight this, I once questioned a friend on their vote in the general election, and the answer I received was 'Labour is for poor people, I work hard and I ain't no scrounger.'. This coming from someone who earns 18K pa, used public schooling, uses the NHS regularly, and receives working tax credits. This is clearly someone brainwashed by the media and social stigma.
    The working class Tory is indeed an intriguing phenomena...


    All your spoon are belong to us

    Comment


    • #3
      As this is serious discussion I feel the need to balance some of the points made.

      Originally posted by I3R0K3N7FEET View Post
      The facts...

      52% voted leave. This is largely due to the fact that England has a Tory problem.
      Only fact there is 52%, it doesn't have a Tory problem, it has a Tory majority (and actually it's not England, it's the United Kingdom, regardless of how fair or unfair you think the current boundaries are). Wales and Scotland have traditionally been left leaning and even Scotland had 38% of people wanting to leave the EU, almost 4 in 10. You also dismiss the most well known of issues within the Conservatives, that there was a very deep and fairly even split between pro-remain and pro-leave.

      Originally posted by I3R0K3N7FEET View Post
      So instead of funding our own education, we play on prestige and import intelligence from European countries where they have high quality, state funded degrees while Britain largely a low-skill labour economy.
      Figure 2. Annual expenditures per full-time-equivalent (FTE) student for postsecondary education in selected Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) countries, by gross domestic product (GDP) per capita: 2012




      From http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp - note how the UK has the third highest expenditure per FTE student - the figures for primary and secondary children from the same website also shows we are above the MEDC average though I'm willing to admit not to the same extent as post-secondary below. However, this also shows (in conjunction with: https://www.ucas.com/corporate/news-...s-and-colleges) that we have record high numbers of students going into post-school education regardless of the financial implications (because debt is written off after however many years - a policy I personally think will come back to haunt us as a country in the future, even though it will probably benefit me personally) and to me, negating the point that as a country we are only focussed on importing talent and growing a low-skilled economy - not true.

      Originally posted by I3R0K3N7FEET View Post
      Why has the government nurtured a low-skill economy? Because they are the highest spenders and consumers. They spend every last valuable penny they got, they borrow more, and hurray for capitalism.
      This is an interesting oxymoron as you're obviously writing as a pro-Corbyn supporter
      Originally posted by I3R0K3N7FEET View Post
      Despite Jeremy Corbyn's strong fight against Theresa May
      You must be aware that Corbyn and McDonnell are saying we are underspending as a country on the poor. They are advocating spending more money we don't have as a nation and wanting to increase our national debt, yet you mock this as a stupid way of thinking?
      I'd also like to suggest that if you applied Corbyn and Cameron's (not May as she has started to retreat from austerity as a policy) views on what to do with debt and applied it to a personal level the effects it would have. To massively oversimplify, say you had an individual that was in 30k of debt. Corbyn advocates spending more to improve their quality of life - outcome is short term improvement in comfort but deeper into debt, even harder to get money from debtors and any you can get becomes more expensive, is a short term solution. Cameron & austerity - short to medium term pain but increase confidence of your debtors, future borrowing becomes cheaper, more creditors will loan to you again, on the path to financial responsibility. Apply at a national level and perhaps you can see why there is an increasing concensus that anti-austerity policy of Labour is one that many voters are wary of.
      Originally posted by I3R0K3N7FEET View Post
      (let's face it, Theresa May is actually incredibly evil, and incompetent to the extent that she makes me wish DC didn't resign, though election fraud etc...) People need to wake up that 'witty stabs' and perceived 'charisma' is meaningless when it comes to running the country.
      Very keen to see your evidence that she is "incredibly evil" and there was "election fraud"? I'm still ambivalent towards May but that just seems like a deep-rooted hatred of anyone conservative as opposed to actually evaluating the person and forming your own view. The latter statement comes across that you just think Corbyn is rubbish in PMQs - hard to disagree with.
      Originally posted by I3R0K3N7FEET View Post
      the UK has some of the highest quality mechanical engineering that is desired the world over, and due to having an efficient and modern infrastructure, handled well, the UK's economy could bounce back harder and faster than some DOOM scenarios would care to admit, many business and economic analysts would agree that the EU has been stifling the UK economy. Also, we may as well take advantage of this situation as best we can.
      This goes against your suggestion that we are a low-skill economy if you truly believe "the UK has some of the highest quality mechanical engineering that is desired the world over" - I personally agree with you, we are famed for our innovation and engineering and just look at ARM proving how we can create incredibly valuable designs, but that didn't happen by accident and it wasn't just the work of immigrants.

      My post so far has probably come across that I'm just trying to dismantle everything you've said - arguably true but to a lesser extent than it may seem. More just because anyone that reads this I believe deserves a bit more balance, I've probably gone too far with defending the conservatives but I just strongly disagree that our country is in as bad a shape as you portray and that it's all entirely the fault of David Cameron and Theresa May (even though I don't believe they've got everything right, far from it).

      Your question was
      Originally posted by I3R0K3N7FEET View Post
      So what would you guys like from an exit deal?
      I would say we still need freedom of movement but to be really open for business with people outside the EU, but I'm watching very closely to see how negotiations go.
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      Comment


      • #4
        i for one am looking forward to the riots when article 51 gets triggered.


        truth is that 52% of those that voted gets to decide.


        truth is that cameron's government held the reigns of austerity too tight whilst allowing the big multinational businesses to pay less tax than most individuals.


        truth is that cameron's government tried to blame our poor, our weak and our elderly for being a strain on our economy whilst allowing those responsible for the decline to scim millions in bs bonus and parachute payments.


        all the while the services which made this country great, which made every man able to chase his dreams, are being ran into the ground to the point where they will no longer be viable....


        as for an exit deal, we will get the shitty end of the stick and we will love it.
        "Those able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."
        Plato

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by luke22 View Post
          truth is that 52% of those that voted gets to decide.

          ...

          all the while the services which made this country great, which made every man able to chase his dreams, are being ran into the ground to the point where they will no longer be viable....
          Choose not to vote? No say - tough. (I voted remain.)

          How do you pay for something you can't afford? Can't borrow forever which was one of the main points of my post.
          Gaming :: Intel Core i7 5820K, Gigabyte GA-X99-UD5, Gigabyte GTX1070, 16GB Crucial 2400MHz DDR4, Corsair H100, BlackGold BGT3620 DVB-T2, Dell U2410, Fractal Arc Midi R2, Samsung 850 Pro 128GB, Samsung 850 Pro 1TB, WD Red 4TB, Creative SoundBlaster Z, Logitech X-230, Seasonic X-650, G900, G510s, 10 Pro x64
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          Comment


          • #6
            yes, but if they don't tax the companies they want to work for after they are out of government, where are they going to pull the money from?

            a somewhat backwards way of remaking the point i guess i didn't just
            "Those able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."
            Plato

            Comment


            • #7
              Original post basically reads as in summary -

              "I want Corbyn for PM so everybody else (mainly Tories) are rubbish."

              You need to balance out the whole piece.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by I3R0K3N7FEET View Post
                The facts...

                52% voted leave. This is largely due to the fact that England has a Tory problem.

                blah blah blah
                Yet more personal opinion paraded around as fact.

                I stopped reading after that point since that seems to be your etiquette in such conversations.

                Comment


                • #9
                  We just need to get on with it and trigger the article, too much faffing about

                  As for the riots, they'd be riots if we went back and didn't trigger it, damned if you do, damned if you don't and all that.
                  Originally posted by Aaron
                  I want those sweet cherries

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by NickCPC View Post
                    Can't borrow forever which was one of the main points of my post.
                    Has anyone ever explained why not?

                    We borrow unfathomable amounts of money already. The difference between borrowing hundreds of billions of pounds and then borrowing a bit more is negligible.
                    Originally posted by coiler
                    He'll have the local FBI round his house with all that hash!
                    Originally posted by BigIan88
                    turn off that sexy nonsense
                    Originally posted by Salad Soup
                    turns out if you touch a stripper too much and try and get back in after being kicked out, they dont like that!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by omega View Post
                      Has anyone ever explained why not?

                      We borrow unfathomable amounts of money already. The difference between borrowing hundreds of billions of pounds and then borrowing a bit more is negligible.
                      Why borrow when you can just print more? And give it to the banks!


                      All your spoon are belong to us

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RandomPC View Post
                        Why borrow when you can just print more? And give it to the banks!
                        Banks just create it digitally numbers on a computer screen.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by k3vst3r View Post
                          Banks just create it digitally numbers on a computer screen.
                          by doubling the real assets value from things they can claim on paper to have part ownership of.....

                          the banking system is as broke as the government paradigm we use....

                          one day we will get past it, i hope.
                          "Those able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."
                          Plato

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by k3vst3r View Post
                            Banks just create it digitally numbers on a computer screen.
                            Thankfully that's not what happens. Banks powers to create currency is limited to what the Bank of England specify. However money is still entirely arbitrary. Particularly in the case of currencies that aren't measured against the gold standard (like how Sterling isn't), but even gold's value is largely made up.

                            We could all stop using the GBP tomorrow and only purchase goods with Mega Drives games. A loaf of bread might cost approximately 1x Sonic 1, but a new BMW hatchback would be 50x Phantasy Star IV's.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It's not so much the value of money, just the apparently arbitrary decision recently that we "must stop borrowing".

                              I'm curious to know the reasoning behind this.
                              Originally posted by coiler
                              He'll have the local FBI round his house with all that hash!
                              Originally posted by BigIan88
                              turn off that sexy nonsense
                              Originally posted by Salad Soup
                              turns out if you touch a stripper too much and try and get back in after being kicked out, they dont like that!

                              Comment

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