View Full Version : angry! stupid silverlight DRM
I use lovefilm and have been streaming off them for a while - recently their streaming site part said that they are changing to silverlight so i must too. So I installed moonlight but it doesn't work :( apprantly it doesnt support the "playReady" DRM thing which only silvelright supports, but microssoft ONLY gives moonlight for linux...so no alternative!!! so no more streaming off lovefilm for me, even though i have a subscription. STUPID!
Apprantly this has been a problem for a while with people who use NetFlix in the USA (I think) - anyone here had this problem?
Techtalknews
18-12-11, 19:05
Email customer service and see if they can offer something
Themanhunt
19-12-11, 21:58
Yeah pain in the butt. I downloaded a couple of online movies I rented from Film4OD but the DRM wouldn't allow me...
emailed them, got this reply:
Thank you for your email regarding the Silverlight player.
Unfortunately the Microsoft Silverlight player does not support Linux,
Unix and Non-Intel Mac operating systems and you will be unable to use
the watch online service if you are using any of these systems. Please
visit our websites help section www.lovefilm.com/help/dyn_faqs.html (http://www.lovefilm.com/help/dyn_faqs.html)
under minimum requirements for further information.
We are very sorry for the inconvenience that this may cause and would
like to assure you that we are only making this change as the studios
and copyright holders that we work with have instructed us to do so to
ensure that their content is as protected as possible. Flash is not
secure enough to stop copyright infringements and so we have taken this
action to upgrade our security.
We sincerely apologise for any inconvenience caused.
BLAH thats it :( did you get your money back manhunt?
Tell them they moved the goal posts and it isn't what you subscribed too and want out no strings then go blockbuster or some others who provide similar services.
Change is only down to lovefilm being sold to amazon...
Annoying, because the way things are going it's entirely possible that MS might be ditching silverlight to focus on HTML5 anyway (although you'd never get them to admit that, they certainly aren't pushing SL like they were a few years ago).
They have broken contract.
They have broken contract.
Have you read the small print in all of their T's and C's? I doubt very much that you would be able to sue them for breach of contract.
Have you read the small print in all of their T's and C's? I doubt very much that you would be able to sue them for breach of contract.
Just because it's in their T&C's, it doesn't mean that it's legally binding. If he signed up to love film for the streaming service, then it could be argued that his consumer rights have been broken. Law trumps contractual agreements, thus you'd win the case.
However you'd likely need to have deep pockets if you wanted to test your case :(
i definatly do not have deep pockets! il email them again, something angry :D its a shame, becaus ei really did like the service - quite a lot of good films/series to stream! i dont know if they had updated their T&Cs since they changed to silverlight, all i can find is that now, but of course they were using flash when i signed up...i wonder if their T&Cs said then that it wasnt compatible with linux (it says that now with silverlight)
i definatly do not have deep pockets! il email them again, something angry :D its a shame, becaus ei really did like the service - quite a lot of good films/series to stream! i dont know if they had updated their T&Cs since they changed to silverlight, all i can find is that now, but of course they were using flash when i signed up...i wonder if their T&Cs said then that it wasnt compatible with linux (it says that now with silverlight)
I think the best you can hope for is an immediate and free cancellation. Not sure if you can do this normally, but they shouldn't charge you see out the contractual term when they were the ones who changed the service. Morally speaking at least - legally they'd have their backs covered, but you could argue a strong enough case where they terminate your contract out of good will.
Good luck though mate - and keep us updated :)
whats the likelihood that silverlight will be dropped in the near future? Im guessing there is no chance of moonlight having the drm issues sorted, as windows is witholding he code right?
I don't think they are likely to 'drop it' as such, it'd be too embarrassing if they did.
It's more that they are 'focusing on HTML5' instead really.
Themanhunt
20-12-11, 17:33
emailed them, got this reply:
Thank you for your email regarding the Silverlight player.
Unfortunately the Microsoft Silverlight player does not support Linux,
Unix and Non-Intel Mac operating systems and you will be unable to use
the watch online service if you are using any of these systems. Please
visit our websites help section www.lovefilm.com/help/dyn_faqs.html (http://www.lovefilm.com/help/dyn_faqs.html)
under minimum requirements for further information.
We are very sorry for the inconvenience that this may cause and would
like to assure you that we are only making this change as the studios
and copyright holders that we work with have instructed us to do so to
ensure that their content is as protected as possible. Flash is not
secure enough to stop copyright infringements and so we have taken this
action to upgrade our security.
We sincerely apologise for any inconvenience caused.
BLAH thats it :( did you get your money back manhunt?
Nope. It played fine, but I decided to download it...slightly against the T&C but there we go I guess.
I don't think they are likely to 'drop it' as such, it'd be too embarrassing if they did.
It's more that they are 'focusing on HTML5' instead really.
will the same problems happen in html5? as in, drm issues, or lack of support for linux? is it going to be an industry standard? (I dont know anything on it :o)
Well, HTML5 doesn't really have any built in standards for DRM, however it's an open (W3C) standard so it'll be fine with linux.
Second email from them
Thank you for your email and I would like to apologise for the inconvenience that the transfer to Silverlight has caused you.
Unfortunately, we are unable to offer Linux users the availability to the new process that has been put in place.
Please be assured that when we receive complaints from customers who are unhappy with a certain part of our service, we take this very seriously. Therefore, I would like to advise you that I have forwarded your email to the relevant department to be viewed and to make them aware of your comments.
I hope this has helped and if you have any further queries or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Bleh!
Gunslinger
22-12-11, 01:55
They will regret cutting off such a large slice of the market like that, think of how many apple ipad users there are out there, that now are going elsewhere, netflix will see the same problem.
silverlight was,is and always will be second rate crap, designed primarily with copyright crap in mind, and user experience a poor second, most of the time i used to just refuse to install it when i was setting up a machine, just hide it in the updates, i've very rarely found a use for it
I think you're mis-understanding the issues here.
The film distributors refuse to distribute films via flash for the streaming server, as there is no DRM in flash, so it has to be distributed within a custom player or by utilising a framework that does support DRM. Lovefilm and other streaming services don't have a huge amount of choice in the matter, it's a distribute with DRM or not at all. Silverlight as a delivery mechanism is fine, but it doesn't fully support all operating systems in the same way flash does, but then in real age terms Silverlight is a baby compared to the adult flash. There are porting applications, but in the very nature of how porting essentially decompiles and recompiles, that's the point of the DRM in the film, if you can decompile you can have the content.
There's no point bashing Lovefilm in my opinion, they have hands tied, they've been polite in response and are aware of the issue and are more than likely working very hard to have a full platform solution.
Silverlight is a great framework, I was surprised the takeup wasn't higher, but flash is so embedded now. Flash was never designed for streaming anything, developers need to trick it and use stream overlays to stop it eating memory on the users device, the biggest culprit being flash inside FF in my experiences.
DT.
Absolutely it wasn't lovefilm, they were pressured into it by the rights-holders.
However the problem with silverlight is that it is and will continue to be platform specific. They have a 'linux version' (moonlight) however that does not and will never support DRM. It's in Microsoft's interest to keep it this way because that way they can ensure that 'commercial' content such as this is only viewable on their OS. Same deal as DirectX, they are never going to contribute to a solid linux port because doing so would be commercially stupid.
I would agree with andyn here - my issue isn't so much with lovefilm (although they didnt say that changing to silverlight would prevent viewing on linux) as i know it is being pushed from behind them - my issue is with how microsoft can use its market position to force users (and other companies) to use its products. After this, it comes down to a choice - either use windows or not use lovefilm streaming. :(
The other option is running Silverlight on IE via WINE. Not sure if that would work or not, but it might be worth trying.
Just had another thought:
Thompson was also quick to point out that the changes won’t affect streaming devices such as PS3, iPad and Internet TVs, and will only apply to PCs, laptops and Macs.
http://thenextweb.com/uk/2011/12/01/lovefilm-ditches-flash-for-silverlight-linux-users-up-in-arms/
So it sounds like you might get away with a similar hack to the Linux iPlayer via iPhone user agent trick. (ie using the same media stream that the PS3 would use and with their user agent).
ahh thanks! will google to see how easy it is to set up, and if it affects the quality much. the streams are pretty low quality as it is, but i wouldnt want choppy playback!
Sounds like a good plan to drive up illegal file sharing if ever there was one.
Instead of making it easier and cheaper for people to do it legally, let's kill our own market places.
Sounds like a good plan to drive up illegal file sharing if ever there was one.
Instead of making it easier and cheaper for people to do it legally, let's kill our own market places.
Yeah, I've voiced my opinion on this a number of times so I've avoided going into a rant on here, but I 100% agree.
The ironic thing that the content industry miss is that pirates will easily work around DRM et al. If something can be played back then it can be copied. DRM cannot prevent this, ever. So all moves like this do is hurt is the genuine customers.
Yup, and to add insult to injury the legitimate customers are the ones who have to sit there watching garbage trailers and "don't be a pirate" messages from the FBI before the start of a film, whereas the people who actually are pirating don't. Bonkers really, they just don't seem to 'get it'.
my issue is with how microsoft can use its market position to force users (and other companies) to use its products.
I'm not sure thats whats happening here. There is nothing wrong with MS developing a DRM distribution method for their own OS, and keeping it that way to make their own product more desirable. Its like Apple developing something like Time Machine or some other software which is specific to their OS and is a potential selling point - and then being forced to make it compatible with Windows/Linux/other competing products etc for free.
The issue, if there is one, is not a Microsoft one. It's the studios/Lovefilm choosing that platform specific medium to distribute the content, and therefore knocking out Linux/non Intel Apple users.
I'm not sure thats whats happening here. There is nothing wrong with MS developing a DRM distribution method for their own OS, and keeping it that way to make their own product more desirable. Its like Apple developing something like Time Machine or some other software which is specific to their OS and is a potential selling point - and then being forced to make it compatible with Windows/Linux/other competing products etc for free.
The issue, if there is one, is not a Microsoft one. It's the studios/Lovefilm choosing that platform specific medium to distribute the content, and therefore knocking out Linux/non Intel Apple users.
Actually I wouldn't be surprised if MS were behind this. The MPAA and RIAA are both heavily involved with MPEG-LA, who MS, Apple and Sony are all members of.
It will also be why the PS3 and iPad will still support Lovefilm despite not supporting Silverlight (Sony's presence in all 3 sectors and Apple's presence on MPEG-LA).
Maybe yeah.. But if Apple are heavily involved as well as MS, I doubt they would have allowed an MS system to be used when its incompatible with non Intel Macs.. It wouldn't 'just work' then. Stranger things have happened though!!
Its also much harder to grab video content off a PS3/Smart TV etc than off a PS3..
Maybe yeah.. But if Apple are heavily involved as well as MS, I doubt they would have allowed an MS system to be used when its incompatible with non Intel Macs.. It wouldn't 'just work' then. Stranger things have happened though!!
Apple don't even support non-Intel macs. So I don't think they see it as an issue.
Its also much harder to grab video content off a PS3/Smart TV etc than off a PS3..
Sorry, I really don't understand your point
Sorry, I really don't understand your point
You said:
It will also be why the PS3 and iPad will still support Lovefilm despite not supporting Silverlight
They are implementing Silverlight to basically try and stop people pirating the films. I was just saying that they wouldn't need to have such a DRM focused player on the PS3/Smart TVs etc, as piracy of films FROM those devices is much harder than from a PC so the need to protect the displayed content is less important.
They are implementing Silverlight to basically try and stop people pirating the films. I was just saying that they wouldn't need to have such a DRM focused player on the PS3/Smart TVs etc, as piracy of films FROM those devices is much harder than from a PC so the need to protect the displayed content is less important.
Actually that's not true. Just because content is intended to be connected to by a PS3, it doesn't mean that a PC can't stream the same content pretending to be a PS3.
This is actually the same point I suggested earlier on when I referenced the iPlayer work around by spoofing the iPhones user agent.
Fine, yes you're right as always.
Fine, yes you're right as always.
???
I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. I'm just saying that there is a possibility that MS did exercise their muscle.
It's also likely that you were right that Microsoft had no involvement in the decision.
There really isn't any way for us to know for sure so I was just embracing the discussion :)
???
I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong.
Actually that's not true.
It did kind of come across like that, as I was discussing too rather than saying definitive answer!
But cool, if we're still discussing then that's all good :)
is it legal for me to use my pc as a ps3 to stream lovefilms content? if so, how would i go about doing it?
Also, found this. Seems like a lot of people have similar views, judging by the comments. Choosing to do things legally, then getting penalised for it!
http://blog.lovefilm.com/uncategorized/why-were-switching-from-flash-to-silverlight.html
Linux desktop market share was 5-6% worldwide roughly, about 10% for OSX. From a LoveFilm perspective of being forced by distributors to distribute with DRM to PC platform. I think it's fair to say, linux desktop users are generally more "savvy" in the way of having to use workarounds to get things to work due to the simple fact the MS-OS is the market leader and is the main target for developers.
I only have free streaming on LoveFilm as part of the account, and I agree with Aaron, it has to be harder to extract the movie from a PS3, SonyTV etc than it is when delivered to a PC, it's not impossible, it's quite easy with a recording proxy, but the impression to most is that it would be harder. The film distributors have a choice in that sense, more market share by delivering to TV, but with less security over losing the entire streaming market over copyright and DRM issues. That'll be why there is no enforcement to DRM to consoles and app-driven TVs.
It'll be a CTO somewhere, been in the job for years and not quite aware of how easy these things are for the dedicated to remove. But I feel for him, he can only advise on technical, and the rest of the board will be all over piracy. The industry is at a tough spot, won't be able to please all - but 15% of people not being able to stream isn't that bad, I'd like to know what streams more movies though - and when the Lovefilm TV apps can use the pay on demand as mine can't.
There's big money backing LoveFilm and streaming is on the agenda for sure, personally - I'm happy with my 3 dvds a month. I've noticed since streaming, I've had a lot less scratched and tatty looking discs come through the letterbox though :D
DT.
It did kind of come across like that, as I was discussing too rather than saying definitive answer!
But cool, if we're still discussing then that's all good :)
I only meant that it's not true that a PS3 stream is harder to rip than a PC stream as long as both are internet facing.
But aside that, the rest of the comments were speculative
I agree with Aaron, it has to be harder to extract the movie from a PS3, SonyTV etc than it is when delivered to a PC, it's not impossible, it's quite easy with a recording proxy, but the impression to most is that it would be harder.
If those devices are using a bespoke video format, then I would agree with you. However the odds are they won't be. They're already paid members of MPEG-LA and MPEG codecs are already massively advanced. Re-engineering all of that would just be idiotic. Thus I think it's safe to assume that the PS3 and SonyTV will both be streaming from Lovefilm using a standard MPEG delivery mechanism.
So all you'd need to do would be find the URI for the content (which again is easy if you have a decent router / firewall set up) and, if necessary, spoof itself as a PS3 (eg the user-agent string for HTTP requests).
This is exactly how Linux users were able to download from iPlayer before the Beeb released a Flash player. It's a tried and tested method and there's absolutely no way the Lovefilm servers can differentiate between PS3 TC/IP packets and a PC sending the same data packets.
If those devices are using a bespoke video format, then I would agree with you. However the odds are they won't be. They're already paid members of MPEG-LA and MPEG codecs are already massively advanced. Re-engineering all of that would just be idiotic. Thus I think it's safe to assume that the PS3 and SonyTV will both be streaming from Lovefilm using a standard MPEG delivery mechanism.
So all you'd need to do would be find the URI for the content (which again is easy if you have a decent router / firewall set up) and, if necessary, spoof itself as a PS3 (eg the user-agent string for HTTP requests).
This is exactly how Linux users were able to download from iPlayer before the Beeb released a Flash player. It's a tried and tested method and there's absolutely no way the Lovefilm servers can differentiate between PS3 TC/IP packets and a PC sending the same data packets.Thats very true.. But there will always be a way around every type of DRM, given some time so I'm not sure the studios are under the impression that they will stop ALL piracy with this. The method you described actually needs some decent equipment, as you said, and also some fairly good networking knowledge.
However I get the impression that, rather than stopping the major pirates, they are just trying to stop "Little Johnny Hacker" sitting in he bedroom with a flash downloader, who can then distribute the films to his Year10 computer class and get some bragging rights.
Thats very true.. But there will always be a way around every type of DRM, given some time.
That's very true. If a format can be played, then it can be copied.
I'm not sure the studios are under the impression that they will stop ALL piracy with this. The method you described actually needs some decent equipment, as you said, and also some fairly good networking knowledge.
Aside the PS3, all the rest of the equipment is very cheap. But I will grant you it's beyond the average user.
However the beauty of this is you only need one person to publish his method and then anybody can do it on their Linux PC - with or without a PS3 or fancy router.
However I get the impression that, rather than stopping the major pirates, they are just trying to stop "Little Johnny Hacker" sitting in he bedroom with a flash downloader, who can then distribute the films to his Year10 computer class and get some bragging rights.
True, but those same script kiddies will run the same tools that will inevitably be published by disgruntled Lovefilm subscribers described above. All that's happening here is Lovefilm are :censored: off their loyal customers.
It's such a short sighted move - but I guess I shouldn't be surprised :-/
so...it would be ok for me to set up my pc as a ps3 to get lovelfilm? and i wouldnt have to buy equipment?
i dont know if any of you have used the lovefilm streaming, but the quality isnt amazing - i would have thought on a big screen it wouldnt look good (I just use the 22inch monitor). I would have thought the usual ways of pirating would have much better results then to take it off lovefilm...
in fact, lovefilm stream a few free movies/programs, so you can just go on their website to see what i mean. im not complaining about the service - i think it (used to) works perfectly for me to watch films on my computer - i just dont see why people would pirate off lovefilm when there are much better quality sources out there.
so...it would be ok for me to set up my pc as a ps3 to get lovelfilm? and i wouldnt have to buy equipment?
It would likely be against their T&Cs, that would be up to you to check, but you wouldn't need a PS3 so long as you know the content URI and any spoofing required. Sadly you'd just have to wait for someone to do this and publish it.
I don't have a PS3, iPad, SonyTV nor Lovefilm subscription so I'd be unable to do any more detailed research I'm afraid. So all I can comment on is the theory of the hack.
i dont know if any of you have used the lovefilm streaming, but the quality isnt amazing - i would have thought on a big screen it wouldnt look good (I just use the 22inch monitor). I would have thought the usual ways of pirating would have much better results then to take it off lovefilm...
You may find that the PS3 / Internet TV stream is better quality than the PC stream as those devices pride themselves on HD quality.
This is obviously just a huge guess though. The quality might even be worse yet hehe
in fact, lovefilm stream a few free movies/programs, so you can just go on their website to see what i mean. im not complaining about the service - i think it (used to) works perfectly for me to watch films on my computer - i just dont see why people would pirate off lovefilm when there are much better quality sources out there.
Oh excellent. I might have a play tonight :)
I've found in my home that
SonyTV > PS3 > PC
for quality. I would imagine results would be different for different people depending on their setups. However none of them get close to being 'HD'.. Freeview HD looks better than the Lovefilm content..
apparantly netflix with have linux support by the time they get to the uk. heres hoping! working through the chrome browser apprantly.
Techtalknews
23-12-11, 15:24
at least the BBC is taking a step in the right direction
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/%5Bprimary-term%5D/bbc_jumps_html5_video_bandwagon
Little step being the operative word.
However, according to Electronista (http://www.electronista.com/articles/11/12/20/video.content.now.available.all.platforms/), the broadcaster’s site still uses Flash for video on PCs whenever possible
I was going to sign up to Netflix today, only to realise that they too use Silverlight. :mad:
i thought netflix had made a chrome extension so that you dont need silverlight?? at least, thats what i think they are planning, but i thought it had already happened. didnt think they had got to the UK yet though :/
http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/2011/08/12/netflixs-chrome-os-plugin-may-be-one-of-googles-first-native-client-examples/
that was from august...
i thought netflix had made a chrome extension so that you dont need silverlight?? at least, thats what i think they are planning, but i thought it had already happened. didnt think they had got to the UK yet though :/
http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/2011/08/12/netflixs-chrome-os-plugin-may-be-one-of-googles-first-native-client-examples/
that was from august...
AFAIK it only works on ChromeBooks. Not on Chromium or anything else custom.
Netflix also have a Boxee app for the BoxeeBox (which runs Linux). But that uses a DRM decoder chip so the Python source can't be backported to Linux XBMC/Boxee installs.
The whole thing is a joke - if they just used open / accessible standards then there wouldn't be all this BS additional development costs for Netflix.
Anyhow, I have a couple of workarounds for Netflix that I'm investigating that should also work with LoveFilms. Though I will say now, they are both horrible kludges.
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