View Full Version : Tipping abroad...
This was a while back now...
2 of us were paying for a meal in a restaurant. I tipped about 15% at the end.
We were getting ready to leave and our waiter grabbed me by the arm. He was holding out the tip in his palm: a stack of dollars and a few coins.
"I am supposed to get 20%. What is this you have given me?"
"er, no idea to be honest. About 15%?"
"It's different here. I am supposed to get 20%, why have you given me less? Was there something wrong? You didn't say there was anything wrong, so why have you given me less than 20%?"
So at this point, I was thinking wtf?:confused: There may not have been anything wrong, but there damn well is now.
I said "OK, let me take a look at that for you" and took the stack of dollars out of his hand under the pretence of giving him something bigger.
I put it in my pocket and walked out, leaving the waiter with his jaw hanging open in the middle of the restaurant and a few coins in his hand.
This has bugged me for several years because I was wondering if I did something really wrong.
You are, of course, told to respect customs when you are a visitor in another country and tipping is part of the custom in the USA. I just didnt expect such a response to what I perceived to be a fair tip. It was quite breathtaking to be honest.
Was this tipping culture out of control?
Should I have acquiesced and paid him what he wanted? Or was I right to show my contempt for his rudeness?
How would you react?
Have you experienced anything like this before?
Discuss!
I personally feel that if I have good service I will leave a tip.... Not because it's expected!...if the place you eat takes tips into account for wages they are in the wrong job...
Good service good tip!
:D should turned the tables an said why does it have to be 20%? i always tip 10-15% etc do you think your special case or something etc :) You did the right thing tbh taking the tip away, perhaps will think twice before arguing about it again.
Was this in America? I've never been, but this is the sort of story I have heard from other people where they will actually accost you whilst leaving if you give a smaller tip than they expect...
People get paid to do a job regardless - a tip is no different from a monthly "bonus" in a standard 9-5 job in the sence of if you do well, you will get a bonus. But its totally out of order to "expect" a tip, it supposed to be a kind gesture not a god given right.
I would have done the same saying that i ront tip at all why am i expected.to give out extra i dont get tipped at work if i go the extra mile to complete a certain task why does the guy that handed me a plate need too..
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
Why do we tip waiters and not doctors...hmmm...
People get paid to do a job regardless - a tip is no different from a monthly "bonus" in a standard 9-5 job in the sence of if you do well, you will get a bonus. But its totally out of order to "expect" a tip, it supposed to be a kind gesture not a god given right.
In America, waiters/waitresses get paid way less then they do here, the social norm there is that you must leave at least 12% tip unless they've given you poor service.
I say good on Robin, your tip was more than generous, ungrateful git :).
TheMadDutchDude
01-06-11, 16:53
Well played. I would've taken the money back as well.
Cheeky :censored:!
In some places "service charge" is not included, and it should state this clearly on your bill if it is the case. In places like this I've always left a tip.
Other places tipping is voluntary and I would only tip if I've received good service... that he expected a tip is bang out of order and you did well walking out :thumb:
Mr. Grapes
01-06-11, 17:00
the thing you have to remember is that in America, restaurants typically don't pay the waiting staff anything or much at all("service not included" really means just that) - they've used the automatic tipping culture that's been fostered over there to gradually reduce waiting salaries to pretty much nil. As a result, waiters get pretty snippy if they don't get 'paid'
TBH Robin, If I'd got that reaction, I'd have done exactly what you did.
I pretty much always leave a tip, especially abroad. I think that in some countries the staff are paid in tips rather than wages.
Tipping in this country gets on my nerves though as people are paid wages so I don't know how they can say that a service charge is not included, I would rather them just give you a straight price.
You did right though, tipping is down to the customer it's not a tax or anything, if he's 'supposed' to get 20% it should be just added to the bill and part of the price.
the thing you have to remember is that in America, restaurants typically don't pay the waiting staff anything or much at all("service not included2 really means just that) - they've used the automatic tipping culture that's been fostered over there to gradually reduce waiting salaries to pretty much nil. As a result, waiters get pretty snippy if they don't get 'paid'
TBH Robin, If I'd got that reaction, I'd have done exactly what you did.
Aye - Was this a justified attempt to get a 'wage' even though it was really rude way of going about it?
Did I deprive someone of his salary in effect? If its part of the culture, should us tourists do as we are told?
In America, waiters/waitresses get paid way less then they do here, the social norm there is that you must leave at least 12% tip unless they've given you poor service.
I say good on Robin, your tip was more than generous, ungrateful git :).
They paid for for thier job nontheless, you wouldnt walk into a shop to buy a mars bar and give the till person an extra fiver for smiling whilst serving would you?
Mr. Grapes
01-06-11, 17:04
the thing that really p's me off about tipping here, is that the waiting staff rarely get the tip in question. ESPECIALLY if you write it into the card machine. but usually, even cash tips have to be handed in centrally so they are divvied up by all staff, usually at a rate of 30% to staff and 70% to management :p
They paid for for thier job nontheless, you wouldnt walk into a shop to buy a mars bar and give the till person an extra fiver for smiling whilst serving would you?
Irrelevant, it's not the norm to do it.
And no in response to your next question, if everybody else did it I wouldn't, however in America, everybody understands that without tips, waiters do not earn enough money, hence the tip, the food is normally cheaper anyway as technically here your paying for a "tip" though the food you're buying...
Mr. Grapes
01-06-11, 17:08
can't believe no one else has posted this:
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I think I would have done the same thing to be honest, whilst I know that in America it is customary to tip your waiting staff, they still have to earn this tip in my eyes, and this can just be something as simple as smiling and interacting rather than just taking orders and handing out food.
When I went to America I generally gave about 10% if the service was just them serving me, about 15% if it was a bit better and about 20% if they went out of their way. At one restaurant we went to (a Dennys) the waiter we had was fantastic, went that extra few miles to make our visit enjoyable and even organised for us to get a couple of items that were not on the menu, I think he ended up getting about a 40% tip (but then it was also almost the last day we were there so had a bit extra spare).
Mr. Grapes
01-06-11, 17:18
^^ this
below average service, below aveage tip. average service average tip. above average service, above average tip
^^ this
below average service, below aveage tip. average service average tip. above average service, above average tip
For me:
below average service - no tip
average service - maybe a small tip depending on the food
above average service - A tip BUT your lucky to get more than a fiver
Watch the first 10 minutes of Reservoir Dogs :p In the USA tips is where most of these people make their money. You don't tip, they don't get to pay rent.
I think the way the waiter reacted was deserving of having no tip though :) He could have been polite about it and said "Excuse me sir, was there anything wrong with the service today? Satisfied customers usually tip 20% you see." But no, he had to be accusatory and rude.
EDIT: We're talking US here. Average service = 20% tip for as I understand it. It's more of a service charge than anything.
In America now, just give whole dollar rounded up from 10% always because it's easy to calculate, not had a problem yet.
Well played, I always felt strange giving tip like it's part of the price, some restaurants even have tip precalculated on the bill, trying to catch you out!
Much prefer UK's you-pay-what-you-see strategy, with VAT included.
I would have said "Okay, here's a tip for you: be grateful you got anything at all with an attitude like that."
Edit: You should have a bowl/tray for tips on the counter at Aria. ;)
I'd have done the same thing. Even if the waiter had given average service, I'd mark him down for being rude, therefore no tip.
Mr. Grapes
01-06-11, 17:35
For me:
below average service - no tip
average service - maybe a small tip depending on the food
above average service - A tip BUT your lucky to get more than a fiver
obviously adjusting up or down for local customs....
in UK, yeah, what you put.
in Kramerica, then the base amount goes up a bit.
also depends on what i actually have in my pocket... last tip i gave contained a fake £1 :ninja:
Watch the first 10 minutes of Reservoir Dogs :p In the USA tips is where most of these people make their money. You don't tip, they don't get to pay rent.
or just see my earlier post ;)
Should I have acquiesced and paid him what he wanted? Or was I right to show my contempt for his rudeness?
I'd say you were right to take off, I'm surprised you didn't give him a right hook :P
How would you react?
probably the same way or ask for the manager
Have you experienced anything like this before?
Nope :)
I had a similar experience in New York a few years ago with a cab driver and a group of my friends who I was doing a few gigs with in the USA. We were on tour, and we had a few days off in NYC so didnt have LOADS of dollars with us anyway - at that point, we only had enough for a 5% tip because the cab ride cost a lot more than we thought.
We tipped him what we had, and got out. In that time, he had worked out what %age we'd given him, and got out the car and came after us. Thankfully, we were staying in one of the 5 star hotels on times square and had been there for a week at this point, so the door people recognised us and saw what had happened and they were on him in an instant. They took his numberplate and told him that if it happened again to their guests, he would be blacklisted by the hotel - they have a drop off/pick up point within the hotel itself where cabs/limos went.
No idea what would have happened if they weren't there though!
people should get another job if they expect tips as a wage..
I will go one further.
This was probably in New York?
I believe, same as is echoed by most of the replies here, that in the America's the service staff are not given a true wage. The "accepted" norm is something along the lines of 10% if the service is poor, 15% if the service is acceptable and 20% if its exceptional. I believe that staff are encourage to ask "what they did wrong" if they only get 10%.
The reason I think Robin was in New York, is because they have developed the equivalent of "london weighting".
The waiters now expect 15% for poor, 20% for acceptable and 25% for exceptional.
It sounds as if this waiter was expressing his request for why his service was deemed as poor, in a way that guaranteed it was!
Personally I find the whole thing pathetic. But in truth I find the US pretty pathetic. They just refuse to put the real price on anything.
Buy something in the UK - look at price, rifle through wallet, pay man.
Buy in the US - Look at price. Rifle through wallet, pay man. Get told off for not adding tax. Pay extra for tax. Wait while man expects a service charge. Give service charge. Explain why you don't want to give 20%. Walk out having paid double what the ticket price was. Get shot.
Typical US "we do it differently to everyone else, but its your fault for not getting it"
I worked in the hotel & restaurant industry for a few years & it is without doubt one of the poorest paid sectors; pretty much minimum wage all round, with no increased rates for overtime or unsociable hours.
There are a lot of halfwits in the industry that do a very mediocre job, but a lot of the jobs, if done well, take a lot of skill and dedication.
Therefore, I will always tip well if the job has been done well.
Having said all that, if they rudely demand 20%, then they haven't done their job well and you did exactly the right thing.
i dont believe in tipping compulsory or not, how many people tip their binmen ?? i think its an expectation that shouldn't be put up with unless you get exceptional service
Edit: You should have a bowl/tray for tips on the counter at Aria.A la Clochemerle - 1970s Tv series.
The French often have a bowl next to the door of the public urinals for tips.
I believe, same as is echoed by most of the replies here, that in the America's the service staff are not given a true wage. The "accepted" norm is something along the lines of 10% if the service is poor, 15% if the service is acceptable and 20% if its exceptional. I believe that staff are encourage to ask "what they did wrong" if they only get 10%.Interesting, in LA was told 15% is normally what's expected, or $1 per drink for barmen and waitresses. This was the same in a typical mid range hotel and in an upscale bar.
Don't like the whole tipping culture at all, I'd much rather get a straightforward price up front and on the bill, then decide if anything extra is deserved.
GentleGiant
02-06-11, 00:08
I was in Orlando a couple of years ago and the damn menu had a chart at the back for working out the 20% tip you were expected to pay.
The waiting staff dont get a lot; I even saw staff working with arms in plaster at Disney, but I did think the chart was a bit cheeky.
BTW, in some places, especially parts of the old Soviet Union, they dont like you tipping, they consider it an insult, so be warned!!
or just see my earlier post ;)
Is that what you linked? Sorry can't see youtube at work :p
EDIT: What's the tipping policy in europe by the way? I've not been to much, just france and ireland really. Not much tipping happened there.
When on holiday in Egypt they expected you to tip up front in some places!
Mr. Grapes
02-06-11, 10:16
when i was in germany we were advised to just round up to nearest euro or maybe a bit extra if service was fantastic. that was a few years ago, so expectations may have changed...
I lived in the US for 19 years and so got used to it. My ex explained that she used to work in a restaurant and the staff earn only minimum wage $3.50 per hour then. To survive, they have to live off the tips and management found out that this was a good way to keep prices down if they don't have to include the expense of paying staff in the price of food and drink.
So it was common to include a 15% tip on top of the price of a meal, add in the drinks and sales tax which is also not included and you will be paying close to 50% on top of the the cost of a meal. Worst still it's expected so something like that will happen when you don't include a tip. I understood why it happens and although I did not like it, I was not going to **** over a waitress (and cook, etc as it get's shared) and not give a tip. It would be an average of 15% although there were very rare times when I'd give less for poor performance, bad manners, cold or wrong food but there'd be plenty of times when I'd give extra for a great meal and service.
It was never common to pay a 20% tip but now I think it's starting to spread, they found that you could get away with in in New York and Florida, especially in those tourist areas where they have to inform visitors that they are expected to pay a tip and tell them how much. Now the practice will spread until everyone is paying 20% whereupon someone else will try to go 25%. Still, I don't like the practice and I do what I can not to promote it. If I go to another country and they ask for a tip, I will only give change, not even 10%.
What about the service charge? That's really a tip that get's added to your bill here, you can't avoid paying it and so it's not worth adding even more.
I lived in the US for 19 years and so got used to it. My ex explained that she used to work in a restaurant and the staff earn only minimum wage $3.50 per hour then. To survive, they have to live off the tips and management found out that this was a good way to keep prices down if they don't have to include the expense of paying staff in the price of food and drink.
So it was common to include a 15% tip on top of the price of a meal, add in the drinks and sales tax which is also not included and you will be paying close to 50% on top of the the cost of a meal. Worst still it's expected so something like that will happen when you don't include a tip. I understood why it happens and although I did not like it, I was not going to **** over a waitress (and cook, etc as it get's shared) and not give a tip. It would be an average of 15% although there were very rare times when I'd give less for poor performance, bad manners, cold or wrong food but there'd be plenty of times when I'd give extra for a great meal and service.
It was never common to pay a 20% tip but now I think it's starting to spread, they found that you could get away with in in New York and Florida, especially in those tourist areas where they have to inform visitors that they are expected to pay a tip and tell them how much. Now the practice will spread until everyone is paying 20% whereupon someone else will try to go 25%. Still, I don't like the practice and I do what I can not to promote it. If I go to another country and they ask for a tip, I will only give change, not even 10%.
What about the service charge? That's really a tip that get's added to your bill here, you can't avoid paying it and so it's not worth adding even more.
Interesting. So if I get that right tipping is basically a way of tax-evasion which benefits the business owners and penalises everyone else.
Mr. Grapes
02-06-11, 10:44
pretty much, since the staff ARE taxed on tips (in america)
Tips are taxable over here too and should be declared as part of your earnings....
Mr. Grapes
02-06-11, 10:48
What about the service charge? That's really a tip that get's added to your bill here, you can't avoid paying it and so it's not worth adding even more.
actually, if the bill states that a service charge has been added (here in the UK), you are under no obligation to pay it, and can have it stricken from the bill. I've seen it done when a small group of us went to a restaurant and they added a 25% service charge.
it was taken off and we gave the staff a ~12% cash tip directly (the service was good.)
Interesting. So if I get that right tipping is basically a way of tax-evasion which benefits the business owners and penalises everyone else.
Yeah, it used to be a reward for good service but then everyone started doing in and so it's become almost a stealth tax. What's worse is that tipping does not guarantee good service, just look at any restaurant or pub over here, you get treated a lot better.
Mr. Grapes
02-06-11, 12:20
just look at any restaurant or pub over here, you get treated a lot better.
Errr... I wouldn't go that far. most pubs and mid range restaurants have shocking levels of service here. at least any round here on the south coast. I'm generally embarrased whenever my family comes over from the states, but can usually pass off the surly service as being 'rustic' :ninja:
I also get really P***ed when I see signs like: "Tipping is not a city in China." That deserves a two finger salute.
Mr. Grapes
03-06-11, 15:07
just for a little perspective, i just saw this comment on a lifehacker article about restaurant upsells (the article is pants but this comment pretty much seals why the USA 20% tip thing is so prevalent...)
http://lifehacker.com/5807926/avoid-overspending-at-restaurants-by-knowing-their-tricks?comment=39716986#comments
there are follow up comments too, but i don't know if that permalink will show them...
GentleGiant
04-06-11, 22:41
Since it insists I enable javascript before displaying anything, I cant/wont read it. I wont enable scripts on ANY website that has no good reason to ask.
Mr. Grapes
05-06-11, 22:15
gah the new gawker format strikes again...
try with the old format using the u.k. site:
http://uk.lifehacker.com/5807926/
then look for the comment by 'Raike'
I don't understand tipping to be honest. I've never tipped anyone in my life, although that may have something to do with the type of establishments i've been to eat at...
so how much does UK waiters get? minimal wage or higher for better restaurants?
He grabbed your arm and practically demanded that you give him more money even though the original tip was out of your own kindness. I would have done the exact same in your position.
http://www.jtrue.com/cartoons/art/low/cow_tipping.jpg
I saw the title and automatically thought of this. Just me then...
I would have done exactly the same.
In my opinion a tip is optional, he had no right to ask for more than what you had given him.
Mr. Grapes
06-06-11, 11:41
@Wu
Uk hospitality staff (bar, waiting etc) usually get around minimum wage, dependant on the generosity of the establishment. I think better restaurants will probably pay a bit better since they'll expect better standards. but conversely the tips will also likely be better and more fairly distributed by the management. anything which is a recognised skill/standard such as silver service should also have a better base pay.
the difference is that min wage here is £5.93 per hour (if you're over 21) which works out to a bit under 12K PA for a ~40 hr week. whereas in america it's something ridiculous like $2.50(dependant on state). take into account exchange rates and the difference is quite stark.
You did the right thing and I'm sure there are a few people reading this who wish they had the balls to do something like that; and yes I include myself in the "too well-mannered for his own good" category.
Even here in the UK where staff get at least the minimum wage I will always tip if the service has been up to scratch. However if its not I don't and do not expect to have to justify my choice to anyone.
People forget too easily that a tip is a gratuity given without obligation or claim and the last thing I want to do at the end of a lousy meal is to delay my exit by having to argue with some waiter who thinks he's entitled to a freebie for a surly expression and inattention.
ColonelMustard
07-06-11, 14:05
Tipping is always a bloody awful dilemma from country to country.
I especially hate it when there is an automatic service charge AND you are expected to tip. Tips by definition should NOT be expected or obligatory. I do not want to encourage restaurants who pay their staff less with the expectations of my subsidies!
15-20% tip? You must be joking. The only tips I give are ones like tuck your shirt in. I don't agree with tipping, if your pay is so bad that you require one then you should change job.
15-20% tip? You must be joking. The only tips I give are ones like tuck your shirt in. I don't agree with tipping, if your pay is so bad that you require one then you should change job.
good luck with that today
Mr. Grapes
07-06-11, 15:23
15-20% tip? You must be joking. The only tips I give are ones like tuck your shirt in. I don't agree with tipping, if your pay is so bad that you require one then you should change job.
you'll go far in life with an attitude like that...
ColonelMustard
07-06-11, 15:24
you'll go far in life with an attitude like that...
One day he'll be leader of the Conservative Party.
15-20% tip? You must be joking. The only tips I give are ones like tuck your shirt in. I don't agree with tipping, if your pay is so bad that you require one then you should change job.
Do you ever wonder why you seem to attract bad service?
DarkStrider1987
07-06-11, 15:25
I always tip about 10% as long as the service has been ok.
What that bloke did to you was unacceptable though, and you were right to leave him with no tip.
It's only an opinion on tipping, it's not a strict opinion I have but I do strongly disagree with tipping. I am a student, so that might change in the future when I actually do have expendable money myself.
One day he'll be leader of the Conservative Party.
I'm willing too wager most of the conservative party DO tip, especially the PM. I don't see how me refusing too tip someone on minimum wage has anything too do with my political views anyway, pretty sure there are plenty of main stream party voters that don't tip.
ColonelMustard
07-06-11, 15:41
It's only an opinion on tipping, it's not a strict opinion I have but I do strongly disagree with tipping. I am a student, so that might change in the future when I actually do have expendable money myself.
I'm willing too wager most of the conservative party DO tip, especially the PM. I don't see how me refusing too tip someone on minimum wage has anything too do with my political views anyway, pretty sure there are plenty of main stream party voters that don't tip.
I was more making a comment about the tucking in of the shirt quip.
Mr. Grapes
09-06-11, 12:03
I am a student, so that might change in the future when I actually do have expendable money myself.
so as a student, have you had to work in a bar or restaurant yet? even in this country, the pay is rubbish, the hours are anti-social and treatment by management and customers is generally poor.
you'd soon be singing a different tune when you work out tips given are proportional to attractiveness, and consistently bad customers get 'special personal additives' in their food/drink.
so bear that in mind next time your tip is 'Don't eat yellow snow'
ArthurHucksake
12-06-11, 22:49
I love the surcharge for a piece of bread and butter.
Always refuse the pre dinner bread and butter, problem solved.
Don't tip, buy the lass a drink. Never fails. ;-)
so as a student, have you had to work in a bar or restaurant yet? even in this country, the pay is rubbish, the hours are anti-social and treatment by management and customers is generally poor.
you'd soon be singing a different tune when you work out tips given are proportional to attractiveness, and consistently bad customers get 'special personal additives' in their food/drink.
so bear that in mind next time your tip is 'Don't eat yellow snow'
Being a waiter or waitress is dubbed a total mugs game road sweeper job in this country. In some places, it's a "respectable" job and they get tipped well.
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