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View Full Version : Sad face :( The Knee fail + Sandy thread.



DoubleTop
03-03-11, 16:06
On one hand, sad faced DT :( No playing football for 2-3 weeks, which is going to be hard as I play once and coach twice a week :(

Happy face, I'm not to walk to work :lol: for first week of "treatment" :lol: I've been given a reason to drive everywhere, I wonder how much weight I'll put on :popcorn:

I've damaged my collateral ligament apparently, just the inside part of my knee. The annoying part, is wasn't done as part of playing football, I just stood up for my desk one day and felt a twinge.

:cry

DT.

Broadsword1976
03-03-11, 16:14
Bad luck DT :( Knees can be :censored:ers = hope it sorts itself out soon - have they given you any medicinal goodies or is it a time and rest affair?

Luckily I don't have knees...just big fleshy bends about halfway down my leg.

Our Cricket season isn't far away, the bowling practise has already started at one of our local schools, I'm feeling like a lumbering ox atm having put on over a stone this year :cry

cruciate
03-03-11, 16:25
As my username might suggest (if anyone noticed) I am a bit of a knee ligament expert :)
Any help you need Doubletop, just ask.

PS. I see you are in Reading, I'm a bit far away to look at it for you (in Manchester), but I was Reading FC's physio for 2 years!

DoubleTop
03-03-11, 16:29
cheers both, a sad DT has just fixed his knee with some retail therapy - SandyBridge parts should arrive tomorrow :D

I'll assemble on the table, so I don't kneel down to do the install :lol:

DT.

marsey99
03-03-11, 18:22
dont push it too hard too soon mate, ligament damage cant take longer to heal than broken bones :(

coiler
03-03-11, 22:12
DT'S KNEE FAIL = SANDY PURCHASE :clap



As my username might suggest (if anyone noticed) I am a bit of a knee ligament expert :)
Any help you need Doubletop, just ask.

PS. I see you are in Reading, I'm a bit far away to look at it for you (in Manchester), but I was Reading FC's physio for 2 years!


Knee health - Barbell squats - parallel or *** to the grass?

cruciate
03-03-11, 23:10
Knee health - Barbell squats - parallel or *** to the grass?

tricky to answer that one. But generally parallel. There are some exceptions though.



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DoubleTop
04-03-11, 08:31
day one of the slacking begins :lol: I've no idea what she did yesterday, but OMG pain for most of the night. Ice pack as told with some ibuprofen and the cold seemed to just make the pain worse. I've a feeling I may be asleep for a few hours today :(

Spaceboy
04-03-11, 08:49
Sorry to hear that mate :(

Assume the cold is to reduce any swelling to take the pressure off... repeat after me :
"My knee is more important than my Sandy build"
"My knee is more important than my Sandy build"
"My knee is more important than my Sandy build"

Hope you get better soon mate :thumb:

coiler
04-03-11, 09:15
day one of the slacking begins :lol: I've no idea what she did yesterday, but OMG pain for most of the night. Ice pack as told with some ibuprofen and the cold seemed to just make the pain worse. I've a feeling I may be asleep for a few hours today :(

how about that red tube you can buy, can't recall the name -heat something- has ibuprofen and heats the area up to ease and heal.


Cruciate doesn't stopping at parallel on the squat put excess torque and shearing forces on the knee joint? Where going hamstring to calves is a natural movement (look at the way toddlers pick stuff up)

cruciate
04-03-11, 09:33
Cruciate doesn't stopping at parallel on the squat put excess torque and shearing forces on the knee joint? Where going hamstring to calves is a natural movement (look at the way toddlers pick stuff up)
True, but as we get older and our cartilages become less resilient we are more likely to injure them at extreme flexion.
Plus the loading through the patellofemoral joint (kneecap) becomes huge at a full squat. I forget the figures but its something like 2x bodyweight at 90 degrees and 5x bodyweight at full squat.
This is fine if you weigh 2 stone and have cartilage that is only 2 years old.
Its painful if you are 35 and weigh 5x that.
And stopping at 90 should not increase the sheering forces because your hamstrings will counteract those forces. Whats worse is doing the "quads bench" knee extension. Where your hamstrings are relaxing to allow movement and you get no protection from the hamstrings.

One thing I would say though, doing full squats all the way to the floor is better than doing no squats at all. Knees (and all joints) like movement. They have no blood supply and feed through natural pressures pushing fluid into the cartilage.
True fact - sedentary workers get more arthritis than manual workers.
It is NOT wear and tear!

coiler
04-03-11, 11:24
True, but as we get older and our cartilages become less resilient we are more likely to injure them at extreme flexion.
Plus the loading through the patellofemoral joint (kneecap) becomes huge at a full squat. I forget the figures but its something like 2x bodyweight at 90 degrees and 5x bodyweight at full squat.
This is fine if you weigh 2 stone and have cartilage that is only 2 years old.
Its painful if you are 35 and weigh 5x that.
And stopping at 90 should not increase the sheering forces because your hamstrings will counteract those forces. Whats worse is doing the "quads bench" knee extension. Where your hamstrings are relaxing to allow movement and you get no protection from the hamstrings.

One thing I would say though, doing full squats all the way to the floor is better than doing no squats at all. Knees (and all joints) like movement. They have no blood supply and feed through natural pressures pushing fluid into the cartilage.
True fact - sedentary workers get more arthritis than manual workers.
It is NOT wear and tear!


Is the quad bench also known as the leg press? where youre sat in a driving seat type position - with legs out in front of you and you press the weight away from you body with legsto around head height - then back? Stay away from machines in gym. But one guy who used to work here had knee surgery and he was an avid user of the leg press!

I always wondered if squats did more -wear and tear- harm than good. Get clicking knees occasionally, but leg strength rockets and really helps on the mountain bike trails. That is indeed good news if using the knee joint with weights helps maintain its health :)

cruciate
04-03-11, 11:27
No. The leg press is usually a good machine.
The quads bench is where you sit up and put your ankles behind a padded roller, then curl your knees into extension. Bad machine. Evil.


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DoubleTop
04-03-11, 11:33
well, I sit with knees close to or at 90degrees all day, 12hour stints at a desk. I walk around every hour as I have to, my leg muscles just seize otherwise.

Talking to one of the ReadingFC chaps who works with youth players, it's probably been caused by the twisting and turning at speed with five-a-side, it being a different stress compared to 11-a-side. I walk to the office, enjoy weekend walks to the park etc. As said above, I need to find the right balance of rest versus actually making blood flow there to "fix". I'm not a fan of swimming, but it is non-load bearing so under advice I will try that at the weekend.

I was so angry yesterday, partly with myself for playing through the twinges for a little while and then at just everything as the realisation hit that is three weeks at least of not being able to play. I'll still be coaching, but will need to discipline myself so much. Will coach in "civvies" and shoes, no boots.

DT.

btw, 6foot5, 14.5stone

cruciate
04-03-11, 12:03
Confused. If it's a Ligament then its less important that you avoid weightbearing. In fact swimming breaststroke is probably the worst thing you can do.
They way you describe the injury, I worried that you had tweaked the medial meniscus cartilage, and that would need reduced weightbearing.
At this stage its a wait and see how it progresses thing.

I used to work with the youth set up at reading too. :)
Although it was 10 years ago and I doubt anyone there remembers me.


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DoubleTop
04-03-11, 12:25
breaststroke was mentioned as a complete nono, I don't swim much, but gives the kids an excuse. It's quite difficult to tread water when I can reach the bottom at most deep ends.

Walking is fine, if I'm careful about how I plant myself and turn corners, the slightest of twists and I'm on the floor.

coiler
04-03-11, 12:50
Squash used to ruin my knees, constant change of direction at high speed!

What is the best way to sit at desk ? i read knees tucked under chair is bad?

cruciate
04-03-11, 12:57
Knees tucked under you is good for your back, but when it comes to your knees it's that thing about kneecap pressures again. The more flexed your knees are, the more pressure on your kneecaps. Best thing is to just change position every 30mins or so


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coiler
04-03-11, 13:07
No. The leg press is usually a good machine.
The quads bench is where you sit up and put your ankles behind a padded roller, then curl your knees into extension. Bad machine. Evil.


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Confused. If it's a Ligament then its less important that you avoid weightbearing. In fact swimming breaststroke is probably the worst thing you can do.
They way you describe the injury, I worried that you had tweaked the medial meniscus cartilage, and that would need reduced weightbearing.
At this stage its a wait and see how it progresses thing.

I used to work with the youth set up at reading too. :)
Although it was 10 years ago and I doubt anyone there remembers me.


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is breaststoke good with kicking legs as opposed to frog legs?

theres a ham machine similar to the quad one too where your ankles are in front of the foam pad and you resist the weight on the way up.

cruciate
05-03-11, 01:20
It's the froggy kick that's bad. A crawl kick would be fine if your coordination is good enough for it.
You're right, there is machine that does the hamstrings the same way. Interestingly the forces are not as bad when doing the hamstring bit. The posterior Cruciate ligament is stronger than the anterior, and can withstand the forces better. And most peoples hamstrings are weak and they can't lift enough weight to damage the knee.


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Sniperdude
05-03-11, 01:26
On one hand, sad faced DT :( No playing football for 2-3 weeks, which is going to be hard as I play once and coach twice a week :(

Happy face, I'm not to walk to work :lol: for first week of "treatment" :lol: I've been given a reason to drive everywhere, I wonder how much weight I'll put on :popcorn:

I've damaged my collateral ligament apparently, just the inside part of my knee. The annoying part, is wasn't done as part of playing football, I just stood up for my desk one day and felt a twinge.

:cry

DT.


I guess that the weight gain will be collateral damage then :chairfall:

Bammy
05-03-11, 12:09
Sorry to but in here.

I have some problems with my knees. They've had a hard life as a roofer for 12 years and plumber for 3 years and a forklift instructor for the last 5 years. There seems to be no strength in them to actually bend to lift me from sitting etc...

They crack, squelch, pop and creak constantly. They've even locked up a few times with not being able to bend at the knee whatsoever with unbelievable pain.

I'm 6ft 3, 103 KG quite muscular and 39 years old. I do have back problems that I take hardcore pain killers for and spinal injections.

I went to the docs and he just said its osteoarthritis setting in.

Surely there's something that can be done?

Bammy
06-03-11, 00:33
Bammy, the thread killer! :p

A Ginger Sheep
07-03-11, 16:46
sorry to hear about your knee mate, hope you recover soonish. don't try and rush back though make sure you work your way back into your normal routine again :)



Bad luck DT :( Knees can be :censored:ers = hope it sorts itself out soon - have they given you any medicinal goodies or is it a time and rest affair?

Luckily I don't have knees...just big fleshy bends about halfway down my leg.

Our Cricket season isn't far away, the bowling practise has already started at one of our local schools, I'm feeling like a lumbering ox atm having put on over a stone this year :cry

tell me about it, ive been back at it about 5 weeks now but the day after the first two sessions my back and shoulders were properly :censored:, still have to look forward to getting back into keeping again which will of course kill my thighs for the first few sessions at least.

cruciate
07-03-11, 19:58
Sorry to but in here.

I have some problems with my knees. They've had a hard life as a roofer for 12 years and plumber for 3 years and a forklift instructor for the last 5 years. There seems to be no strength in them to actually bend to lift me from sitting etc...

They crack, squelch, pop and creak constantly. They've even locked up a few times with not being able to bend at the knee whatsoever with unbelievable pain.

I'm 6ft 3, 103 KG quite muscular and 39 years old. I do have back problems that I take hardcore pain killers for and spinal injections.

I went to the docs and he just said its osteoarthritis setting in.

Surely there's something that can be done?

Sorry Bammy.
I've been away for the weekend. But you are still a thread killer!

Your situation sounds suspiciously like a patellofemoral problem. Chondromalacia is its fancy term if you fancy Googling it.

The problem with this type of problem is it is very frustrating to treat. You NEED quads strength. But strengthening your quads will hurt. And the more it hurts the less likely the muscle is to strengthen.
And we have a vicious circle.

The good news is that if I'm right with your diagnosis, it won't cripple you. You don't end up like that arthritic old man on a walking stick, that you've benn thinking about ever since your doc said the word "arthritis".
It just hurts to get up and down from kneeling, sitting, and especially walking DOWNstairs. (That bit always confuses people).

The trick is to strengthen the knee while avoiding weight bearing bending as much as possible. So squats are not a great idea.

1. Static quads (sitting with your knee out straight and tightening it as hard as you can),
2. Straight leg raises (Knee out straight, lift straight leg an inch or two off the ground and keep it there for 5 secs) and
3. Cycling (Keep the saddle high)
are good exercises.

Good luck Bammy

DoubleTop
07-03-11, 20:12
going to be tough watching tonight :( we're playing a team that on paper we should beat, but with myself and one other out we are at a loss for out and out defenders.

As each day passes, the number of twinges is lessoning. I just wish I could do something to speed up the recovery :( Calf muscle is starting feeling tight tonight as had to walk a bit today to a client meet in town

Bammy
07-03-11, 21:33
Sorry Bammy.
I've been away for the weekend. But you are still a thread killer!

Your situation sounds suspiciously like a patellofemoral problem. Chondromalacia is its fancy term if you fancy Googling it.

The problem with this type of problem is it is very frustrating to treat. You NEED quads strength. But strengthening your quads will hurt. And the more it hurts the less likely the muscle is to strengthen.
And we have a vicious circle.

The good news is that if I'm right with your diagnosis, it won't cripple you. You don't end up like that arthritic old man on a walking stick, that you've benn thinking about ever since your doc said the word "arthritis".
It just hurts to get up and down from kneeling, sitting, and especially walking DOWNstairs. (That bit always confuses people).

The trick is to strengthen the knee while avoiding weight bearing bending as much as possible. So squats are not a great idea.

1. Static quads (sitting with your knee out straight and tightening it as hard as you can),
2. Straight leg raises (Knee out straight, lift straight leg an inch or two off the ground and keep it there for 5 secs) and
3. Cycling (Keep the saddle high)
are good exercises.

Good luck Bammy

Thanks for that matey.

That certainly makes a lot of sense. I am reasonably fit still but I have put some weight on since the back problems kicked in properly.

I don't have any time to recover when it 'goes' as I have 2 kids and a disabled partner to care for :(

Sorry for the slight hijack :) I'm done now.

DoubleTop
10-03-11, 23:52
so a week of driving to 1/4mile or so to work in the office and I'm so lethargic, I need my exercise :(

It's been a week, I was naughty one day when in town to meet a client and paid for it with aches, ibruprofen sorted that.

No car tomorrow to the office, but I do have a lift back :D