DAW - Digital Audio Workstation

[butcherbird]

Hi, First time caller and all that. I am in the process of building up a new PC for the purposes of a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation). I'll be using full copies of Pro Tools M-Powered 8 and Cubase 5 under XP Pro x32 SP3, all of which I have.

The Audio Interface (already bought) is a USB 2.0 M-Audio Fast Track Ultra and much of the connection to other instruments interfaces will be USB 2.0 or MIDI with USB 2.0 interfaces. The USB bus must be kept clear but for those to avoid latency and as many on the motherboard would be helpful.

I need two 22" Monitors preferebly DVI and a matching Dual DVI Card. Since the machine is not games orientated they do not need to be lightening fast. I need a PCI Wi-Fi card (108mbs) and because I may be altering the Sound Cards to two M-Audio Delta 1010LT PCI cards in due course for a second machine (two/three months down the line) I need a good number of empty PCI slots on the motherboard.

I'll use 4Gb of DDR2/3 Ram which needs to be expandable to 8/16mb in due course under a x64 operating system. Cases and PSU's are not really too much of an issue, Midi-Tower with 500w will do, I'll hush it down later or bung it in a cupboard. 2 x 500GB SATA HDD's will do fine with a DVD-RW as I'll add 1 to 2 TB drives drives as we go.

As to the CPU I thought of the AMD series Athlon II x4 or Phenom II x4. Now the rub. Between £500 to £600 or near immdediate budget. Unfortunately I've got to get this unit into service fairly soon as I need it for a sound engineering course, the second mostly running V-Stack synths can wait until the new financial year - or so the trouble and strife says!

It's been about three years since I did any building last so any help or suggestions would be gratefully recieved.

Thanks

ButcherBird

[DoubleTop]

what timing, the 22" monitors on the specials will fit the bill, as will many of the graphics cards also in the specials. That eats £200 of your budget. From my previous workings with audio, you'll want a very fast HD for read/write of the audio files, look at the velociraptor or ssd drives for the OS/tmp composing recording drive.

Leaving £300 for a base system that's going to be upgradeable to cope when you can is going to be tough, what components can you take from an existing system?

DT.

[Aaron]

you'll want a very fast HD for read/write of the audio files, look at the velociraptor or ssd drives for the OS/tmp composing recording drive.
I'd say one of the F1/F3s would be plenty quick enough, especially if you stuck a couple of them in a RAID config. Much cheaper than raptors too :)

[butcherbird]

With regards to existing sytems, ther isn't one I've been using an Acer Laptop which is now struggling. Some basics, I hope I am going the right (economical) way with the CPU's but which. In the choice between the AMD Athlon II x4 640 and the Phenom II x4 9650 will the lesser of the pair cut it for the while leaving me to upgrade the CPU later and use the Athlon later in a slightly lesser build or should it be phenom all the way.

With the motherboard and ram plainly I want to stay away from boards intergrated with graphics and I need at least one PCI-E slot for a graphics card, one PCI slot for a wireless card and at least two spare PCI's for a switch to internal sound cards later. So with a desire to use fast ram say DDR3 1600 that would dictate an AM3 socket board? Yes?

Taken the 22" Monitors on sale there is a question re DVI here. Some of the specifications I have been reading state that the monitor is DVI but not which one i.e. DVI-I or DVI-D. I presume the video card must match the socket versions at both ends, correct? Am I correct in thinking that the Video Card does not need to be very fast for my DAW use. Also the length of the DVI cable may have to be longer than standard so how long can it be before the signal degrades?

I think I'm on a fast learning curve here so any help is really appreciated.

ButcherBird

[DoubleTop]

OK, so it really is a scratch build :)

I'd agree with the AM3 board with DDR3, and that you should stear away from the integrated gfx, spend your money on the board, as much as you can spare, it's the foundation of what you really intend to build going forward.

GFX, as a rough rule of thumb, stick around the £40 reegion of the ones listed in the daily deals, they'll manage dual screen but as you say, ensure you pick one with dual DVI and not oneDVI+oneVGA or you will notice the difference on identical monitors. You may benefit from a board with the nforce780 chipset that offers hybrid sli, but that's may be irrelevant depending on your choice of motherboard. I can't really advise as I myself don't have an AM3 system, but that will change after Christmas Day when I count the pennies left.

The majority of monitors are DVI-D I think, someone else with better knowledge may help you with this one. I've never had a problem with the different types, other than on a Mac Display, but that's an entire different issue.

hth,

DT.

[butcherbird]

Yeah thanks for that. MoBo and Ram are the foundation I agree, as for the GFX card I was looking in the £50 region trying to keep it simple, however because of the Dual DVI there is less choice.

However the choice of processor is a pain. I really have no benchmark for these DAW programmes on either of the Athlon II or Phenom II CPU's. I'm going to take it that in either a x4 processor is favourite.

Anyone else with ideas on this build.

[Aleksandr]

I would certainly at least consider a motherboard with onboard graphics, the 785g for example you can run one digital and one analogue output, ok this isn't your preferred dual dvi but is dual dvi REALLY necessary?

That £50 saving on not buying a grpahics card could be better spent on a cpu upgrade? Surely thats more important for your needs?

[Aaron]

If it were me, I'd be looking at one of the PhenomII X4s for the CPU if you're going AMD :)

[DoubleTop]

from a quick Google, both apps you mention will utilise multicore cpu. So that's a good start, there appears to be issues with Cubase and "cool n quiet", so make sure you disable it.

All suggestions are valid, it's a tricky one as the budget is tight.

DT.

[DoubleTop]

there are a lot of comprimises in this as a build, and I've not included mouse, keyboard or little peripherals either (like your wireless card). This would provide a good foundation in my opinion, and being honest I can't believe that I've specced a dual monitor setup for this price!!

http://teamphoenixrising.net/files/shopcart2.gif
DT.

[Aleksandr]

NOI but £18 on a case and psu?

Personally i wouldn't trust that psu as far as i could throw it.

[DoubleTop]

NOI but £18 on a case and psu?

Personally i wouldn't trust that psu as far as i could throw it.

within the budget, it doesn't allow for much more :( A decent keyb/mouse and the wireless card can see well into that £90. I personally like to spend more on the mouse+keyb than most as it's the most used and visible part of the system. Granted, a supplied psu isn't likely to be up to much, but I've had some Asus barebones last for years and years on the same bundle cheapo PSU. How about helping with a few choices of psu+case that would be a decent chasis for holding those components rather than a short post? We don't all have the time, but if you are going to comment on something, it's helpful to the OP to give alternatives.

It's hard to put all thoughts in a single post, but my upgrade path for that load as a base would be PSU+CPU, RAM and then HD.

Does the OP have licensed OS or is that a need for factoring in as well?

DT.

[Aleksandr]

Whoa sorry ,chill mate, i think i probably spoke for most people when i said that, all you need to do is go for a slightly cheaper motherboard say £50-60 and spend the difference on a semi decent psu.

Something like this maybe? Also got a triple core cpu in there too.

http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac6/Aleksandr_Orlov/screenshots/spec1.jpg

[DoubleTop]

nice one :) it really wasn't a dig at you mate, re-reading that's how it comes across, my apols.

Down to the OP to really decide on which route to go, personally I would lay down decent foundations with the board and build around that. It's a personal preference thing, a sneaky drop in HD size there to save a couple of pennies ;) Having worked with sound files in raw formats, it consumes HD space at a remarkable rate, maybe my choice is not on special anymore.

+rep for taking the time to fill a cart:cool:

DT.

[butcherbird]

Hi, Sorry Xmas duties called. The realities are that this is unfortunately a quick and somewhat dirty build. It is interesting where and how people place their priorities and all comments positive/negative apply in this case.

I have a licenced copy of XP Pro which will be augmented by SP's 1 through 3. For the time being although I (I what am I saying - you) am working on a credible machine to get me through to April and a second build will take place where I suspect most of this machine will end up as number two.

However it will work in direct conjunction with another machine providing the synth stack so it does need to be sufficient to do either for the time being. I am comparing the specs you are giving with those of manufacturers and builders who make specific DAW's and it's surprising how well this build is doing with your ideas.

However here is a bender, there are a number of warnings (it seems to go for both Pro Tools and Cubase) NOT to keep your working files on the same physical hard disc as the programme and/or operating systems. Funnily enough I can recall when working with some music production studios that they were the only files that they had corruption problems with on a constant basis and they practiced the same of seperate physical hard discs.

Please keep em coming and I will be back in due course.

[DoubleTop]

I wonder how long ago that advice on seperate drive was given. With a large portion of sys ram, you should be able to turn off virtual memory, and normally this is what causes issues, along with low cache controller hard drives.

With virtual memory off, and the much better controllers in HD, for a first build you'll probably be fine with just the single drive, but I'd make sure you have space on your laptop/current rig to hodl backups just in case ;)

DT.

[Aleksandr]

@ DT, thats cool :D

@ OP, have heard something along those lines before, a few freinds have been into music creation too, in that case then just use a smaller drive for the OS and say a 250gb for your music files. the only problem with this is, unless its a raptor / ssd (ie expensive) chances are it will be lower performance. Or maybe partition a single larger drive, though i am not sure if this is really ok in music production?

[butcherbird]

I wonder how long ago that advice on seperate drive was given. With a large portion of sys ram, you should be able to turn off virtual memory, and normally this is what causes issues, along with low cache controller hard drives.

With virtual memory off, and the much better controllers in HD, for a first build you'll probably be fine with just the single drive, but I'd make sure you have space on your laptop/current rig to hodl backups just in case ;)

DT.

So far as I can make out it is still current. This maybe because of the presence of REWIRE and other similar programs, I wonder what issues might apply to VStack and a second machine as well. It might be easier to backup to an external drive anyway so that can be relocated to a seperate place. Just more money, edumicatshun is a right expensive business these days innit!

[Aaron]

Having done a lot of studio work (on both sides of the window :lol:), I would still go along with the idea of keeping everything separate.. I found that it not only keeps things intact (IE, if the OS disk crashes, you still have the takes on the the other disc, completely separate and vice versa), and also it speeds things up.. You get to utilise the full disc bandwidth for both the OS/Programs disc and the recording disc, instead of them sharing one channel.

The other thing I found really sped things up was to split the swapfile across more than 1 drive for the same reason. I have my swap file split across 3 or 4 drives, and it really notices :)

[butcherbird]

This is one of those projects that started out small and ending up on the national debt. To actually pull together a studio with more than one DAW in it and keep the automation of it manageable is proving quite a task.

I think most of what has been expressed and suggested here is spot on and needs a couple of days to digest because bringing in a second computer and ensuring there are no redundant or mismatched parts from one to the next is not as easy as it sounds.

The DAW software really seems to be non-standard in so far as the amount of problems experienced with it. One of the biggest is latency.

Does anyone know the effects on a USB system of using a mixed USB 2.0 and the older USB 1.1 standards together. I have one or two bits of kit (soft synths) that rely on small boxes with USB 1.1 connections and also MIDI connections. When they were introduced to my Laptop setup which is all USB 2.0 they brought the whole USB array down to 1.1 sppeds and abilities it appears.

Can anyone comment on or know of a way around this, otherwise I may have to create a USB 2.0 system and a seperate USB 1.1 system and mix them across the desks.

ButcherBird

[DoubleTop]

This is one of those projects that started out small and ending up on the national debt. To actually pull together a studio with more than one DAW in it and keep the automation of it manageable is proving quite a task.

I think most of what has been expressed and suggested here is spot on and needs a couple of days to digest because bringing in a second computer and ensuring there are no redundant or mismatched parts from one to the next is not as easy as it sounds.

The DAW software really seems to be non-standard in so far as the amount of problems experienced with it. One of the biggest is latency.

Does anyone know the effects on a USB system of using a mixed USB 2.0 and the older USB 1.1 standards together. I have one or two bits of kit (soft synths) that rely on small boxes with USB 1.1 connections and also MIDI connections. When they were introduced to my Laptop setup which is all USB 2.0 they brought the whole USB array down to 1.1 sppeds and abilities it appears.

Can anyone comment on or know of a way around this, otherwise I may have to create a USB 2.0 system and a seperate USB 1.1 system and mix them across the desks.

ButcherBird

To be sure, spend the £10 on getting a PCI usb dedicated controller. I've never bothered testing this on any of the recent motherboard, most have 8+ usb headers on them now. I don't know enough about the USB controllers on these to comment.

DT.

[butcherbird]

Actually I am surprised at just how bad and slow the music industry is/was in adopting USB 2.0, possibly the great white hope of Firewire muddied pools. I've noticed that sales of Firewire equipped gear are falling and you can pick up some bargains both new and second hand if you keep your eyes open.

Now we have USB 3.0 as a standard and it would appear some adoption in progress. So I suppose now we'll have to struggle with equipment that has MIDI/USB 1.1, MIDI/USB 2.0, MIDI/Firewire, MIDI, USB (both versions) and Firewire on their own and now USB 3.0 as well. And I thought we had some standards in technology. Well actually I know we have, a bloke down the pub told me.

It seems that individual motherboards and equipment react differently to the two USB standards (which is really helpful). It's going to be trial and error to establish what though.

I note also that USB 2.0 PCI cards have not been behaving as they should. Some boards reject USB 2.0, some will not go above USB 1.1, whatever is tried, some have mismatched drivers and will not install USB 2.0 which makes one think that in some cases a USB 1.1 port with the right drivers can become a USB 2.0 port under certain hardware circumstances. Many motherboards need BIOS upgrades.

Frankly I'm sorry I asked and I'm thinking of taking up the spoons and a kids drum instead. Oh well onwards and upwards.

[DoubleTop]

blame Apple, the massive adoption of Firewire in the iMacs and macbooks must be blamed :)

DT.

[butcherbird]

I wonder why it is that when someone mentions Mac to me it conjours up visions of Harvey Nics, Adena, Patsy, Saffy, twee, pointless and expensive all in the same thought!:rolleyes: